Workplace Worldwide: Where Diversity, Equity and Inclusion Do Not Intersect with Wilma De Soto (Part Two)

Speaker 1 (00:00:01) - You're about to listen to Workplace Worldwide, a podcast featuring news, deep dives and interviews about our workplaces and workers rights worldwide.

Speaker 2 (00:00:10) - Another one.

Speaker 3 (00:00:27) - anti-Blackness is just racism. Pretty much institutionalized racism, like you say. We said at the beginning of our conversation, when you have in the very framework of a written country written that certain individuals are only 3/5 of a person. That has to resonate through the history and culture of that country. And the fact that, you know, you had those people spend nearly 300 years as owned property. And a you know, then you had a pretty much kind of a. You know, the railing of reconstruction because black people were making progress. For example, the Freedmen's Bureau Bank, you know. Completely messed up, like $58 million of black people's money who were freed from slavery. We had massacres of black Wall Street areas. And post-slavery people were making progress too much, you see. So they had to be burned down. They had to be massacred. They had to be murdered, that kind of thing.

Speaker 3 (00:01:42) - Any time that you try to step up in any sort of parity, there is a backlash of rage. And and then they moved the color line back again. So this has happened throughout history. So whenever you come into a workplace as a black person, there's already an automatic thing about you don't belong here. That not only extends to the workplace, a lot of the customers and colleagues are like that. They don't want this person on their account. Okay. Or we don't want to work with this person on the project. Yeah. Okay. Et-cetera. Those things manifest, manifest themselves. And usually what happens is it's the fear factor. Again, if you're working together with someone, wait on a project. But let's say that you come up with more creative ideas or something where you know you think the project should go, then that's when they pull the color line back. Back Because one of the cornerstones of white racism is not being able to take any kind of leadership or direction from black people ever.

Speaker 3 (00:02:55) - Ever. So if, you know, I'm working with you and you know I'm taking this thing in a place where, you know, no man has gone before or whatever you want to call it, or just really come in with a lot of good stuff. It can't be that I am going to get credit for that. That's got to stop. So we either going to talk about it or or turn it back to where we want it. Because in, you know, in the presence of difference, a lot of white people have problems. When there in the presence of difference. Their outlook is either too dominated. Or destroy it. That's. That's it. It's not anything about working with it or seeing people. It's just different. It's always the other.

Speaker 4 (00:03:46) - Yes. And this is the this is sadly what. People are going to work and experiencing in the United States, specifically black people. And this is why a policy about equity cannot be broadly applied to a white woman and a black person of any gender.

Speaker 4 (00:04:09) - It needs to be specifically addressed what these actual equity issues are, because the equity issue of a white woman like me and any black person is very, very different. The policies are going to serve us in different ways. And what can be done about that? Exactly. In nine out of ten companies are white people, or at the very least, they're certainly not black people. Right? So we I also feel that it's a and correct me if I'm wrong here, but would you say that it's very much like two steps forward? One step back is a good analogy because like you said, any time there's a little bit of social movement, a little bit of power, we see black excellence, we see the the fruits of this community. It has to be immediately stripped back and taken away.

Speaker 3 (00:05:03) - Yes, that's exactly the phrase that a lot of black people use. Two steps forward, one step back, and I put a book on my resource list. They're called White Rage. And that really explains that phenomenon very, very well.

Speaker 3 (00:05:22) - So even if you look at. The history. There's another book that's on that list that I've included called Anti Racism in US History The First 200 Years. This is something that is never taught in schools. How many white people were anti racist in this country the first 200 years? It's not something that a white supremacist hierarchy or country wants white people to emulate. Therefore, you don't hear about them in classrooms. You don't hear about them in universities. You know, the only white anti-racist that you do hear about. Was John Brown, who was hanged at Harpers Ferry, West Virginia, I forget, 1848, something like that. The don't quote me on the date, but he's only portrayed through American history as some kind of nutcase. And, you know, and they were kind of like nursery rhyme stories that were made up, you know, for kids to chant about John Brown's body and that kind of thing. And it was sang to the tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, which was written by Julia Wardell.

Speaker 3 (00:06:36) - But that is linked to Lincoln, Abraham Lincoln, the one who signed the Emancipation Proclamation and was ultimately murdered for his trouble. So this is you know, it lets people know that if you don't tell that line of whiteness and superiority and things, you're going to be punished. You're going to be drummed out of the white white circle or yeah, I don't know how to prove it, but drummed out of whiteness, you know, you're a race traitor. You know, you're you're, you know, you got to uphold the the company line or else, you know, we're going to kill you. We're going to, you know.

Speaker 4 (00:07:19) - Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:07:20) - You. We're going to disenfranchise you, whatever. So.

Speaker 4 (00:07:24) - I mean, the.

Speaker 3 (00:07:26) - Is that too harsh? I'm sorry.

Speaker 4 (00:07:29) - No, no, it's not harsh at all. It's. It's poignant. And it needs to be taken, you know, with some, you know, like earnestness.

Speaker 3 (00:07:40) - A lot of these anti white race, anti racist whites were persecuted.

Speaker 3 (00:07:46) - Yeah. And even if you go to like a motion picture like like Amistad, like that one, you see the abolitionist women there and they're all portrayed wearing and black and banging tambourines and stuff like a bunch of nuts. You know, they're not portrayed as people who are doing something important in ordinary the whole. But yet you see around the country statues of slaveholders and and plantation owners and and people who mutilated black people like that. I think they took that statue down in New York City. The cult father of gynecology, you know, and the terrible things that they did to black women to establish the science of ecology, even the Tuskegee experiment on syphilis and things like that, the things they had done I mean, retinal was developed through Doctor Kriegman experimenting on black prisoners at Graterford Prison here in Philadelphia. I mean, it's, you know, then no wonder people get kind of leery about medical science and things, you know? Absolutely. You know, my own my own experience and my sister and my mother, Um, I have pernicious anemia.

Speaker 3 (00:09:08) - Okay. And my my sister had it. And that's an autoimmune disease that runs in people of Scandinavian descent. Okay. Now, when you come up like that and you have that as a black person, it's like, what the hell? You know, this can't be right. Now, I had my DNA done, and lo and behold, I have. Quite a lot of Scandinavian DNA, which is weird, you know? I never knew that. Have quite a lot, nearly, I would say almost 30%, believe it or not. Okay. I don't know where how, which way it came through, whatever, but that's what the data says. Okay. We can't help that. So when you have these diseases that are. Found among the whitest of white people or side effects that we also get In my family, that happens in a high or low very low percent of white people. The medical establishment doesn't believe you, okay? They don't believe you and they don't treat you that way.

Speaker 3 (00:10:20) - It's like, you know, it's all in your head. So even just to get proper health care. Yeah. It's a struggle. You know, you got to advocate for yourself. Anybody I know goes to the hospital. Somebody's got to be there. You know, to to monitor the care they're getting, ask questions and that kind of thing, which is sometimes not wanted, but it's necessary because there was an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer yesterday about a new and they said that, quote, a new race neutral policy of giving organ transplants to black people because a lot of black people were dying because they were moved down the list for organ transplants. So now there's, quote, a new race neutral. Policy and one hospital here located in Philadelphia, and it was in the Philadelphia Inquirer yesterday. You can Google it and read it yourself. So it's a struggle. Everything that you do is. You have to be aware of those things constantly, and it causes a lot of psychic stress.

Speaker 4 (00:11:32) - I you know, I really can't imagine.

Speaker 4 (00:11:35) - And I think that it touches back on what you were saying earlier as well, that, you know, every every part of the life and every part of the experience is ultimately, you know, you have to be you didn't use these words, but you're on the defense. You have to put in all these extra mechanisms into place that. People otherwise do not have to do. And you're. Also, you know. I can sense that there is times when this policy goes into place. My first question is, well, which white person is congratulating themselves about that and why aren't we talking about why we needed it in the first place? On that macro level, that was what you're talking about before. Why aren't we having that conversation? Uh, because when it's manifesting in every area of your life, it's. You have to have it, you know? Yeah, it's constantly denied. Constantly.

Speaker 3 (00:12:35) - But a lot of people you'll see in the street or whatever have that going. Yeah, all the time.

Speaker 3 (00:12:42) - We all do. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of where people get their fear of us. Yeah. Because if they were treated that way, they knew how they would react. Oh, and. And. And they sometimes they don't understand why. We're not behaving in that manner.

Speaker 4 (00:13:05) - And this interesting trend where it's cool to be an ally, it's great to be an ally. It's great to have BLM on your Instagram profile. And, you know, in the public domain, we're seeing this more and more. And I'm really curious your thoughts, because this is just my theory and I don't live it like you do. But when I see that kind of stuff, I see it as like a little. Free pass to kind of still be racist to to not do the work, to not make the changes. You know, if you've got a marketing executive with BLM in their bio on their page. Right. They say, you know, they're supporting it that way, but will they bulk and become uncomfortable and hostile when the idea of having an anti blackness policy in a diversity policy comes up? Can you.

Speaker 4 (00:14:03) - Share. You know, going deeper beyond that idea, how exactly this type of performative allyship and just also, you know, just in general, white people, all of us, how this is harmful and counterproductive to conduct yourself like this in the public domain and the you know, the harm that it may do to someone like you and also the places where you work.

Speaker 3 (00:14:32) - You know. I'm learning this is for white people is a lifelong struggle because it's so embedded. So they put up a lot of flags and window dressing so as to say, Well, see, that's not me. I'm not like that. Yada, yada, yada, you know? But they never get down to it. Now there's a resource I put on the page I sent You called The Cost of Doing Business. Okay. And it's made by a very good blogger on YouTube by the name of Ian Danskin, and he has a series of videos called The Alt-Right Playbook. Okay. And this one was one of my favorites because he actually addresses.

Speaker 3 (00:15:24) - Why and how white people avoid. Thinking about or doing anything about whiteness. Okay. It's it's what they've done is power over saying that I am white because of my skin color and that. Is discrimination against me because of my skin color, if you say this or that or the other thing. But it's really an invention. Now. There's also a book on my resources called White by Law that I read, and there were lots of people in America who sued to be considered white in America. A lot of them are from Asia or Middle East, and they had white skin. But they were denied that privilege through the legal courts, even though there's no legal definition in the US or what constitutes a white person or what makes the white person. It was just their feeling or or their right to say who's white and who's not. Okay. I also look at black people who suffer from an autoimmune disease called vitiligo. You might remember Michael Jackson had had that where they lose all their pigmentation and their skin is white.

Speaker 3 (00:16:45) - Does that make them a white person in America? No. Okay. Well, if white is based only on skin color, that would correct if white was based only on skin color. Those people from Asia, Middle East, who had white skin color would be considered white in America. Even the founding fathers of this country did not consider the Swedes to be white in America. The Swedes were here in our part of the country in Delaware first and then Pennsylvania and then Jersey. Okay. There's still old Swedes church here, the Swedish society here. There's Swedish cemetery here. But the English who took over did not consider them to be white. So if white was just on skin color. They would certainly have been considered white in America by the Founding Fathers. Whiteness has to do with power over black. It's not really relevant outside of black people and other non white people. In Ireland. They had the troubles for years. There was the people who were the republic and people from the North. They weren't people from the Republic fighting rights.

Speaker 3 (00:17:58) - They had wars. Bosnia. Serbia. Croatia. Those those words. None of them were against whites. They were all good spouses Serbs, Croats or whoever, Montenegro, you know, Albanians, whatever. You see what I mean? Oh, yeah. They don't use that amongst each other. It's only in with regard to compare and power and dominate and subjugate people like me. So that's a social political construct that people need to understand. And all the trappings that go along with the domination and subjugation are institutionalized and socialized. So they're a great part of people. So to actually find white people who really are going after racism and anti-blackness, there's a lot for them to learn and unlearn. Mm. And like I said, they suffer consequences for that because they've broken the white protocol. So. Now on Ian's video on the cost of doing business, he points out something very, very important that a lot of these things between liberals and conservatives, that's where the fight is to fight is against liberals because liberals put a spoke in white supremacy in the 60s when they passed things like the Civil Rights Act.

Speaker 3 (00:19:32) - And the Voting Rights Act. That's why they had to be punished for that. They broke white supremacist protocol for that. So so it's been a back and forth between them. The liberal thinks that I'm a better person morally than these people because they're all racists. They wear Nazi tattoos, Klan hoods, yada, yada, yada. Okay. The other side thinks you are a traitor. And, you know, deep down inside, you feel just like we do. And in the bottom. There's the people who are the collateral. Collateral damage, black people, brown people, immigrants. It's not done to help them. The fight is between one faction of whites and another faction of whites. Yeah, we're just collateral damage at the bottom. And they both are trying to get what they want. It's not anything about what we want or what we need.

Speaker 4 (00:20:33) - Yeah. And you know, I think it's clear as day because if you look at since 2016, the way politicians have run, right, there's always they're always speaking to the black community.

Speaker 4 (00:20:46) - They're always, you know, putting the black community front and center. Not much is changing or has changed. That's totally illustrates to me your point. Exactly. It's the white faction versus white faction, and you can't deny that.

Speaker 3 (00:21:04) - White supremacy.

Speaker 4 (00:21:05) - 100% and you can't deny that it's that there's nothing more than more oppression, collateral damage for the community that suffers from it.

Speaker 3 (00:21:15) - And now they're all white anti-racists. But, you know, but even they can have an issue when when you get down to the real nitty gritty of things and don't want to accept it. But there are and I guess like like Ian says, we're they're the white people. We had the best shot at it. But the liberals and, you know, the liberals and conservatives. No, no, no shot. And it's all about them. It's not about us at all. It's very hard. And, you know, I understand it's very hard, especially when Donald Trump said on January 6th about taking down those metal detectors, They're not going to hurt me.

Speaker 3 (00:21:57) - That's really what is about. They're not going to hurt me. I'm going to be all right. I might. Okay. So why should I destroy all that privilege that I have and freedom and stuff, you know, to help these people? Yeah. Do I really want to go there? And that's why things don't change. And, see, most liberals don't want to really go there. They really don't. They they they claim to be allies. And going back to an earlier point I made about that book about anti-racism in US history, the first 200 years, they're not taught how to be that. There's no example for that through history. So when they're trying to do white allyship and think they're kind of floating out there in space on their own, there's no precedent for them to follow. There's no there's no literature or historical precedents for them to see what, you know, how these people did, what they did, what they suffered, etcetera. So they're kind of just out there. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:23:00) - And and they also had trouble taking leadership and direction from black people when people tried to tell them, well, you know, this is what it's like and how it is, etcetera, because they are part of their society. They are socialized into whiteness and white supremacy. So it's very difficult. And I know very few white people who are willing to really take up that work of dismantling that. And I do know a few. Yeah. And and but the jority or a third. A quarter. No, no I don't know.

Speaker 4 (00:23:36) - Yeah. It's not real. It's not where it's really actually at and Yes.

Speaker 3 (00:23:42) - Compartmentalized.

Speaker 4 (00:23:43) - Yeah. It's, it's paying enough into the basket that's being passed around the church to feel like you've done enough and and then calling it a day kind of it's classic whiteness because it's the best of both worlds. It's having the cake and eating it too. I don't like racism, but I'm not going to live an anti-racist life or fight for anti-racist things. One of the ideas that I had going into this was to talk about, well, this law and that law and this and what could be changed, you know, in a in a utopian world, What does the United States of America look like? And I'd be feel pretty fucking dumb to ask that question after this conversation.

Speaker 4 (00:24:25) - So I'd like just to know, A, is thatrillionoute viable at or at all going down that route of having the government do things? Or what is your perspective on that? Sort of understanding now, you know, we've talked about how much things don't change and what the power structure is. So what do you what are your thoughts on a sticky wicket?

Speaker 3 (00:24:48) - It's a sticky wicket.

Speaker 4 (00:24:49) - Sticky wicket.

Speaker 3 (00:24:50) - It is, yeah. A. There have been some initiatives of government that did help. Yeah, helped, you know. You know, so you can't say that nothing has helped. But if I go to sell my property and. And I and. I'll have a white friend come with the appraiser. Not me. Yeah, because I will get a lower appraisal. So, yeah, of course. And it's a sticky wicket. Like I said, this is hard for white people. It's not easy. I don't tell them, Oh, well, just do this and then you'll be anti-racist. It's very difficult and there's a lot at stake to lose.

Speaker 3 (00:25:37) - Those perks of whiteness is very detrimental to them. Okay? And a lot of them can't face it. So. At or even see that they need to face that. So when you got something that people don't even see, don't want to hear, don't want to do. It's a very sticky wicket. How do you get there? So that still leaves the onus on us to kind of do what we need to do to survive and maybe even a modicum of success. And a lot of that had to do with public education, which is under attack because of that reason. Yes.

Speaker 4 (00:26:20) - Yeah.

Speaker 3 (00:26:22) - That's what my opinion is. That's why it's under attack because, yeah, too many people got through with black teachers and things and we're able to succeed in a society that hates them. Yeah. Okay. That's got to stop, too.

Speaker 4 (00:26:40) - Yeah. And I mean, that's, that's the thing. I think, you know, maybe it's not the exact cultural moment, but I think Barack Obama winning that election, regardless of the political side you're on, was a big, you know, like, oh, well, you know, they're really good at all the things we were really good at when we let them have basic human rights.

Speaker 4 (00:27:02) - This is a problem. I really see that that perspective here. And and it is a sticky wicket.

Speaker 3 (00:27:08) - That's interesting that you mentioned Barack Obama because at first I never heard of him. Yeah, a lot of black people never heard of him. He was a black candidate brought to the fore by white people. And they said he didn't have any baggage from slavery or civil rights movement, etcetera, etcetera. He's got clean features that whole bit. Okay. But like somewhere along the line when he was elected, they realized that he was actually black and he was married to a black woman. Okay? And they got a black people in the White House and they went into a state of shock and frenzy and have been there ever since. Wow.

Speaker 4 (00:27:51) - I mean, that's that's as clear-cut as it can get, you know? And it's yeah, it's a really well illustrated point. What would you want to to say or leave audiences with after such a lengthy and broad conversation about black people and workplaces, black people in America or anything that you think is is worth ending this with?

Speaker 3 (00:28:17) - Well, our organization, National Workplace Bullying Coalition.

Speaker 3 (00:28:21) - Is really about having dignity at work and enforcing legal things on the books and passing new laws that what what Tony and Hershey and I were trying to do was bring awareness to the group that there's another aspect to workplace bullying. And maybe so I give the organization a lot of credit for hearing us out and maybe giving us an opportunity to work together to try and provide a place where people can go when they have this disrespect and and slights, because that's usually what it is, is it's disrespect for who you are as a person, your accomplishments. I mean, one of my colleagues, former colleagues on that board of National Workplace Bullying Coalition was FD, and she was told to her job that the PhD that she got wasn't as good as others. And I'm thinking, Oh, okay, well, that's no, no, they question every credential, etcetera, etcetera. And like, you know, and I've seen, I've seen the look of shock on people's face when I said I'm, you know, I went to Oberlin and Oberlin Conservatory, you know, because that's a very wealthy, private, liberal arts college.

Speaker 3 (00:29:44) - You know, you you go to those ruling class schools, which are Ivy League or those top private liberal arts colleges, and people are like, you know, oh, you know, like. Yeah, yeah. You know, you see, you know, you, you see the reactions, you know, of people. Yeah. And, and you know, and yeah. So I think we're trying to. Get this aspect of workplace bullying included in general workplace bullying and not just, you know, harassment of women or or people who have gender issues or whatever. There's nowhere for us to go and all the above pile on us. Not just, you know, the one power structure. All the above. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a very good Harvard PhD thesis buying. A late friend of mine, Noel Ignatieff, called How the Irish Became White. And you can download it on for free on the internet. It's PDF thing, but it details the ethnic people who have come over and especially the Irish, but particularly but how they've all come over into it's already a racialized society because you had more years of slavery than not.

Speaker 3 (00:31:07) - Okay. But they all come over and they know that no matter what station or class they were in their country of origin, that they're not going to be me in America. Yeah, and they're going to take steps for that. So we have all that standing on our heads and there's no place to go. Like I said, there was no research. There's no real knowledge about it. So what we're trying to do is make people aware of how that is part of the whole. And it's hard to escape. Which is why it's so difficult for white people. I'm not saying, Oh, go and do it because it's really, really hard. And I know what you're up against. If people try. Yeah. And people will find out. And that book about anti-racism in the US history. It's good. Good chronology. But that's what we're trying to do. I am happy that WBC. Even listen to us and is trying to work with us. They're a great group of people.

Speaker 4 (00:32:19) - Yes.

Speaker 4 (00:32:20) - And I think that's a great way that people can can sort of connect with the the core of your work that you're trying to do, which is bring this awareness into this space. And like you say, there is nowhere for you to go. So. Naturally the labor is falling upon you to create that place to grow. But I think that if people are listening to this and they're really wondering, you know, about how hard it will be and all these difficult things. These types of organizations are where you will find people doing the work day to day. And there are ways to assess these organizations and try and get involved. And I think the biggest takeaway, like you said. For white people. I am literally one, if not one of the whitest. And it really comes down to, like you say, yeah, it's it's hard and difficult. But one thing that I just an example that I always balk at is like when I see other white people, there's no. Black person around and they're talking about, Oh, but I don't want to bring it up to our boss.

Speaker 4 (00:33:26) - You know, he sends an inappropriate meme in the work chat. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. It's going to be really difficult and awkward. It. If you feel that way as a white person, immediately maybe step back and think about how the person that experiences that oppression may feel and that the consequences for you having that awkward conversation are going to be substantially less than a black person having to do it. And that would just be the one tiny little thing that we can start our days with and our processes with, with just trying to make the more immediate a little better If you are in a position to do so, not risking your life or things like that, but being realistic about what your contributions and actions make and then, as you say, in the broader scheme. Really understanding that dynamic of black versus white and where it's come from and how it's conditioned us.

Speaker 3 (00:34:31) - Yes. Let's not forget how part of that conditioning is to ignore pain and suffering of those people.

Speaker 3 (00:34:37) - Yeah. Yeah, it's a huge part. So it really is difficult because when someone brings it up, then it's like, Oh, it's all in your mind or it's not that bad area, you know? So even if I do hear about pain and suffering, I just got to blow it off, you know, that kind of thing. So you have all that going against you. And interfering with. Any attempt to try and rectify or ameliorate. The condition. Yeah. So it's tough. But, you know, I hope I didn't scare people or anything. You know, and it's.

Speaker 4 (00:35:19) - Refreshing to have a conversation that's not people dancing around each other and dancing around the heart of the matter. This is the the heart of the matter that you're getting to hear. And at the end of the day, you know, we may not know the solution, but we still don't fully understand the problem. And I think that's what we've got to really get at. And can I just say, not on a faux hopeful note.

Speaker 4 (00:35:47) - The best. Possibilities for humanity and for society. We haven't imagined the world of equity for black people. A fair and dignified existence for black people doesn't exist. Yet No one has thought of it in real practical terms yet. We need to be a part of that as well. And driving that forward and not looking at the binaries of the power structures, in my opinion.

Speaker 3 (00:36:16) - Like Apple used to say instead of think other. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (00:36:21) - Yeah. Wilma. Well, you're going to finish us up on that hit of a note. That's incredible. Thank you. We have in the show notes every way that you can connect with Wilma's work and the organizations that she's working with. And to be honest with you, I don't think this is the last time we'll see you, because I need to do a podcast with you on that militant activist, badass teachers Facebook group and the whole genesis of that organization, because I think there's a lot of interesting stories in there.

Speaker 3 (00:36:53) - Yeah, I'll ask my colleagues maybe, you know, they want to do something as well because, you know, we're it's tough.

Speaker 3 (00:37:03) - Oh, yeah. There's a lot against us. Yes, it's very, very tough. Yeah, But I'm happy with the work that we're doing and just trying to carve out that niche and just make people a little more aware. That's just plant a little seed.

Speaker 4 (00:37:27) - Workplace Worldwide is produced by Kate Bailey and the team at Hand and Heart Media. For any enquiries related to this broadcast, please email HQ at Hand and Heart EU and don't forget to follow us on the gram at hand and heart EU. Original music is composed and performed by Amanda and produced by Amanda with Kyle starter. You can follow Amanda and Kyle startup on Instagram or listen to their music on Spotify, Apple or SoundCloud. If you love Amanda's music, we do too, and we ask you to please consider buying it directly from Bandcamp. Support indie Always. Thanks for listening. We appreciate your support.