Workplace Consultants (Culture & People), Workplace Investigators, Mediation & Conflict Management

Mar 15

Mar 15 Workplace Weekly E2: The Cost Of Workplace Bullying & The #StopHurtAtWork Campaign with Nicki Eyre FRSA

Workplace Weekly E2: The Cost Of Workplace Bullying & The #StopHurtAtWork Campaign with Nicki Eyre FRSA

Google Lady 00:00

You're listening to workplaces weekly, covering workplaces and labor activism and trying to have a remotely decent time doing it. Cool. As Craig David calls we are born to do it. Let's do this thing

Kate Bailey 00:27

Hello, everyone, welcome to workplace weekly, your favorite podcast about workplaces. This episode is all about bullying a topic which we will revisit many times, I'm sure. But we'll be getting into today. It's something that we talk about all the time. But a lot of the behaviors that we see in bullying, often are technically legal. That's what this episode is about. Fanny, you want to give us a definition of workplace bullying because I think it's worth sort of defining what it really is

Fanny Wandel 00:57

for sure. So workplace bullying is repeated and unreasonable behavior that is directed towards an employee or a group of employees. And this would create a risk to both health and safety. So some common behaviors of workplace bullying include verbal abuse, intimidation, exclusion, and spreading rumors or false information. Other behaviors might include physical aggression, sabotaging work or deliberately withholding information needed for work. And it's really important to note that workplace bullying can take shape in many forms, and it might not always be immediately recognizable.

Kate Bailey 01:30

Yes, and I think that loss sentiment, they're not immediately recognizable covers off a lot of the conduct that we hope to unpack in workplaces weekly. It's the things that are under the surface. The events incidences patterns of behavior that give you as the person the recipient, an uneasy feeling, but you can't quite pin it down. So a lot of times when people come forward with complaints that could be described as bullying, they're often dismissed. Because it doesn't seem like much a lot of the time. On the surface, it can seem very superficial, it can seem as though the person is being hypersensitive, there are a lot of reasons why a genuine complaint about a behavior that shouldn't be accepted and workplace just doesn't go anywhere. A lot of people see it as a severe reaction to something that happens to everyone, oh, everyone goes through that. But it's actually severe behavior, and a very normal reaction to have a traumatic response to this type of behavior. Now, before we get into today's interview with Nikki and I were going to be discussing a bullying story, which has been in the headlines, not just recently or in the last year, but for a number of years. And when it wasn't in the headlines, it was definitely within the gastronomy industry, something that people would talk about frequently, and I'm discussing Noma and the experiences people had while working there. I'm gonna hand this straight to you funny, because it's kind of interesting. This is one part where we as strangers up until two years ago, our worlds didn't intersect. But I very much feel that my background in gastronomy and your presence in the Copenhagen food and beverage scene kind of collides these worlds together.

Fanny Wandel 03:19

Yeah, absolutely. Well, with Noma it's been a really interesting might be the wrong word. It's been enlightening to follow the issues going on there. I definitely am a service industry person as well. I've been under the spell of Noma and those elite high end elite restaurants for sure. And anyone in Copenhagen and works within food and beverage, I think everyone tries to model it, because it's successive Noma. So with them. The Workplace Bullying that's allegedly taken place, there has been well documented for I would say, about 10 years. And the first article I was ever able to find about that was from a Danish publication called Utahans person. And what had happened with Noma was they had someone leak the contracts for their stock shares. And then these contracts that were very, very explicit about the behavior you were expected to show up with. And so

Kate Bailey 04:26

and just to confirm, for those that might not know, Estancia is someone who goes in and works essentially for without pay. It's the experience and therefore the credibility that they get from having had that experience.

Fanny Wandel 04:38

Yeah. And it's very coveted especially with a Noma. I think the mentality there is once you work at Noma, you can get any job you want. So it's worth working for free, right or, Oh, you're getting all the experience like that's what you're getting paid. Yes,

Kate Bailey 04:51

it's to gastronomy as to what design photography any other creative thing is to someone who produces something for a magazine Yeah, yeah, you're there for the exposure. Yeah, you're working off of a lot of social capital. Yeah, exactly. unexposed people work. Yeah.

Fanny Wandel 05:07

But back to this article from 2013. From New Orleans person, it's where the Stasha contract had been leaked, it was very specific about, you know, meetup times what you were expected to people to provide for yourself before your staff even started, you know, like, all the accommodation and Copenhagen is really expensive. You basically pay to work for free at Noma. Next, you had all the sort of guidelines for how they had to conduct themselves within the workplace. And I mean, what confidentiality, totally understand that within a business perspective, but in this contract specifically, it stated that something like sharing photos from the workplace from the Noma kitchen on social media that could end you up on a blacklist failing to comply with like the terms of your stash. So if you end your stash early, you can knock on a blacklist,

Kate Bailey 05:59

and the blacklist being ultimately a list of names where you know, this thing that you did the storage, like has no weight because they're not willing to support you. And if anything, may even go a little bit further and degrade due to a potential employer. It very explicitly

Fanny Wandel 06:15

states that it says you'll end up on a blacklist that we share with people we have good relationships with.

Kate Bailey 06:21

Oh, so they're just sharing the list, unsolicited? Yeah. That's a blacklist. Yeah,

Fanny Wandel 06:26

that's a blacklist that says as much it's it's pretty shocking. Yeah. And then either covered the story as well. And no mind response, of course, said we don't actually blacklist, it's never been something that they've put into effect at all.

Kate Bailey 06:42

So the contracts are out there in the world. And numerous as No,

Fanny Wandel 06:46

no one ever been blacklisted. Oh, yeah. No one's been blacklisted. Maybe we have the

Kate Bailey 06:50

policy. We just haven't enforced it. And yeah,

Fanny Wandel 06:53

but maybe that goes to show that their policy works really, really well. And people are super scared to be blacklisted. 10 years later, now we're here today, in 2023. I'd say for the last year especially. Or maybe even the two last two years. An article came out from the New York Times from Julia Moskin uncovering a lot of misconduct going on at a former Noma chef's restaurant in Washington state that sort of had a ripple effect. And as of last year, no one has really been under the gun. In the public sphere. People have been really critical. And as recently as maybe six months ago, Noma had committed to start paying their stashes. Interestingly, when we started this new year in January, New York Times comes out, Noma saying that it's not actually sustainable to pay people. And no as we know, it is going to close in 2025. But it's going to be reconceptualize. So closing, I think is maybe the wrong word choice. You'll still be able to eat their food.

Kate Bailey 07:57

Yeah, I'm 100% certain that empire is not going anywhere. But it's an interesting way to phrase the closing of an establishment like that, but do go on. Yeah,

Fanny Wandel 08:06

yeah, we're closing in two years, but not really. Yeah. Anyways, it's been very enlightening. Very interesting. They've been under the gun, I guess, especially with more powerful industry voices chiming in and being very critical of, especially that announcement. Yeah. And then I guess, to put myself into this situation, when they had announced that I, of course, was sharing a little bit about it, not a lot, but I was sharing the articles and I was sharing more critical perspectives about this sort of PR exercise that was happening. Next thing, you know, an individual that I'm familiar with, writes me and asked me if I'm able to see the Noma Instagram stories, because they can't, and they think that they're blocked. And I go and I check and I see nothing. And then hey, what do you know? I manage the hand on heart social media, so I can check with you there. Yes, guess what I saw I saw a Noma story.

Kate Bailey 09:09

Oh, you got blacklisted

Fanny Wandel 09:11

on social listed on social? Anyone

Kate Bailey 09:13

know blacklisted by normal? You heard it here first. Yeah.

Fanny Wandel 09:17

Not the first time. But well, by no my Yes. First time for sure. Then, yeah, I mean, should we even is it worth getting into the gaslighting that I had to deal with right after but that was where I then very publicly announced that I can't see their stories. And I think within the hour, the Noma social media account that was like a million followers wrote me and basically was like, oh, you know, you're not blocked. She was blocked. I was very blocked, very blocked and it was a big back and forth. I even recorded my screen to show them where to go in on the settings to unblock me.

Kate Bailey 09:57

This is the best restaurant in the world social media. Yeah. She said, two or three things on her community page go on

Fanny Wandel 10:05

nothing. Nothing explicit about them, I'd say but yeah. And then next thing, you know, after a little bit of back and forth and resistance, then they said that they had corrected the problem.

Kate Bailey 10:16

corrected the problem. Yeah, very good. Yeah. Who knew that was a problem in the first place? It's hard to say

Fanny Wandel 10:21

it was really, I gotta say the best part of that interaction was when they claimed that I must have muted or blocked them, but I don't follow him on Instagram.

Kate Bailey 10:30

So this is worth talking about, I think, because a lot of what we've seen over the last two years when it comes to public allegations of bad working environments, is the immediate gaslight. Like it's your problem. No, no, no, something's wrong. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then there's very quiet. Oh, that's been fixed. Yeah. And no, it was interesting, because I haven't even done that. With the, with the workplace allegations. But I do want to highlight as well outside of this, which is just a tiny example of what I think is the pettiness of that industry, and the fear that people have about the truth and maybe the fear that they have of what has happened behind closed doors. So the thing about NUMA is that the allegations about their workplaces are severe. I have been writing about them in my just from my own notes, and various things like that, and just in various professional ways, keeping track of normal, and it goes back really to their Australia trip to not paying First Nations people for the food that they help them forage, essentially, they choose to pay a different supply, even though Renny was filmed out there with the First Nations person being shown how to forage the food, small examples like that right through to a sous chef that I had, that I was working with, who had described to me what they had experienced while working there, in the front of house, and the colorful language that was being used by Rene. But I also think, so therefore, I think that it shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt is not entertainment. It's really serious stuff. And I think you've got a pretty good example as well of the just just to color the lines and a little for people.

Fanny Wandel 12:22

Yeah, um, so last year, I had shared it took a long time to find this, there was a Noma documentary by a news channel called Dr. In Denmark. And it was from I believe, 2008 called Nomad boiling point. So hard to find, I needed some special login for that I borrowed from like a uni student I know to go see it. And then I shared clips of it, because it does not portray its owner in the best light. It shows a very explosive temper. And one can only imagine that this was kind of curated already. Yeah. That's just a hunch i Yeah,

Kate Bailey 13:04

it's conjecture, but I think it's reasonable. Yeah.

Fanny Wandel 13:08

And because I shared that that obviously brought a lot of people into my inbox, who were telling me a bit about their experiences via that other Michelin restaurants, or in this case. So we're going to talk about now this was specific to the Noma family and Rene, and this was someone who had then seen the video that I shared, and it spoke volumes to them, they said that it brought a lot back for them with their experience. Going without going into too much detail of their time there. They had ended up putting a notice pretty fed up with the behavior. And it had angered Rene so much that he had exchanged words with this individual and this individual had already put in notice. So that was not a popular move. And it escalated to a point not of being violent, but hands were put on someone and a third co worker needed to split them apart. Okay, yeah. So definitely intimidating as hell. I've never I've had a bad a lot of bad work experiences, but getting physical. That's just unacceptable. Yeah. And then I remember my conversation with this person, this person is doing just fine now and seems to have healed quite a bit. But we had a lot of discussions about, you know, what were their feelings, leaving on those times? Did they fear for their career, if they wanted to continue within hospitality? And they said, you know, maybe if they remained within the food space, they imagine that it would have been really, really hard for them.

Kate Bailey 14:43

Yeah. And we've seen this in multiple industries, where you can if you kind of reach that echelon, you know, the cool kids, the elite places, things like that, that it's almost a career as a career maker. a career break up. Because if it doesn't work out for you in that environment, if you can't hook it being, you know, having hands put on you by the person who owns the business you're working for, if you can't hook it, yeah, then the chances of you being able to feel safe to go out into the rest of the community, and get another job and work in that capacity again, is very, very limited. Yeah. And so that is why a lot of people leave. Yeah, it's not for a lack of competence or a lack of skill. It's just literally we can't deal with that often off.

Fanny Wandel 15:33

Yeah. But it's also I mean, I know that the situation over there used to be probably isn't anymore with all the issues they've had. But I'm well aware that rids up is wife's mother, his mother in law is eight or used to be HR within the Noma group. Right. So that also upholds a lot of the conduct that's going on there. How do you feel comfortable going to your boss's mother in law, the best chef in the world mother in law, and saying, Hey, he flipped out on me. Yeah, what am I going to do?

Kate Bailey 16:04

Yeah, and and that just goes back into the Danish culture that we've seen, and I think is very interesting for people because we have listeners in the US, we have listeners in the UK and all across the EU. I think Denmark does a fantastic job of portraying this sort of utopia of your rights being respected. But a lot of the infrastructure in Denmark because Denmark is small, has family members, as HR friends as HR. And HR is generally seen of light, as you know, everything's so good here. Why would we even need it? Like we don't even have racism? Do you see black person is or racism in Denmark? I feel like which,

Fanny Wandel 16:47

you know, especially maybe I like to think that a lot of people within food and beverage are maybe a little immature. We all are. And yeah, myself included. But HR is kind of presented to us as the sort of like high school counselor they can go and chat with and then everything will be good after. And it's not

Kate Bailey 17:05

No, yeah, no, because there are things there are processes and things that have to happen. And I guess like bringing it all back around to today's topic, workplace bullying, the legality of it, and really getting into the nuts and bolts of that. In a country like Denmark. The workers that a place like neuroma can go and report to certain agencies and unions. But nothing happens. Nothing is happening because that system is also broken. So when we talk about all of this normal stuff, we've got a decade of things here is because the systems that are meant to enforce these good standards are not working. Yeah. Because if they were, I don't think that we would have empires like what we have houses of cards, which are built on models of exploitation, and silence.

Fanny Wandel 17:56

Yeah. It would be really hard to for anyone to really take distance from him. The way that Danish people look at it is he put a mark on the map? Food wise, he did. foodwise he did. And he made it a very popular travel destination. 10 years ago, 11 years ago, when I finished school, none of my friends wanted to come to Europe. Yeah, now they do. to Denmark. Really? What? Yeah,

Kate Bailey 18:19

at what cost? Not to quit. If for my Scottish listeners, that's a lemme mean, Paul's hills. And,

Google Lady 18:26

you know, what cost? What that would cost?

Kate Bailey 18:32

At what cost? Because the thing is, is, is it really, you know, this was a glorified art project, if you really think about it, because it ain't a food business. No, we know that, because he's just told us. Yeah, but the business model has not changed. The only thing that changed was paying people. Yeah, so it was an art project. And at the end of the day, what glory should these CEOs and these the owners, that ultimate person benefiting? What glory can they really take when it's sort of like the House of Cards is just a bunch of people's broken dignity? Yeah. Like, that's, that's what your empire is made up of? Well, I don't know. And this is something I just really hurt changes as society is changing away from this culture of adultery, which I think we saw in hospitality before we saw it in more mainstream business culture. Yeah.

Fanny Wandel 19:29

It's hard to say I mean, what I the pattern that I keep noticing with Rene Redzepi, with David Chang, it is the fact that they preemptively get to an issue before the rest of the world does. They rehabilitate their image. And then like we saw with David Chang, you know, he presented his behavior and some of the incidences in a very watered down version, and obviously, he pushed back because of that, and he minimized it to such an extent that it just you know, but his reach is what then? trumps everything that comes from employees because he's world famous and his narrative is so powerful.

Kate Bailey 20:11

Yeah. And and what we find ourselves left with is a society ultimately that is rewarding bullies, no one bullies. And I think we're really at a point where we have to ask is that the type of society that we want to be? So on that note, let's get into today's interview, we're going to do a short little introduction and then we'll be discussing all of this and more not Noma, bullying, all of this and more with Nikki. Hey, you, yeah, you listen up. What police weekly is an entirely independent production funded by the commercial activities of hand and Ha, we do not run any membership or subscriber options, but we ask you that if you'd like to support our work, please share our work on socials. Tell your friends to listen to an episode and send them a link and rate review and subscribe to us on Spotify or Apple, maybe both one post or one share or one review make a huge difference. And if you would like to support us and appreciate the work we do, this is what we recommend you do to support us. Thank you so much for listening.

Fanny Wandel 21:25

Right we're ready with our interview for this episode. This episode we're gonna be talking to Nikki air Nikki is the founder and managing director of conduct change, a consultancy that aims to prevent and resolve workplace bullying. She has had a very career spanning the public, private and charity sectors and is a coach, consultant and trainer with a specialty in workplace bullying. She also leads the stop hurt at work campaign focused on advocacy and awareness raising about workplace bullying. Nikki has spoken at events both in the UK and nationally and it's a member of the International Association of workplace bullying and harassment and a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts.

Kate Bailey 22:04

In our interview with Nikki we discuss her work with conduct change and the stop hurt at work project. Our interview covers a lot of topics ranging from as approach to organizational consulting, her observations of workplace culture and challenges and the insufficiencies of current laws regarding workplace bullying. Now, I really wanted to have someone like Nikki on this podcast, because it is rare in my profession, that we have people who do advocacy work as well. It can be quite a risk to your career. Because ultimately, you advocate in a space where you expect people to hire you to solve their problems, they're much less likely to solve your problems, if they get any sense that you would treat the employees perspective fail. Yeah, basically. But the work that Nikki has done in the bullying space is incredible. So it really for me is about highlighting these voices to our listeners, where we can really shine a light on the individuals who are approaching this work with the perspective that can be better, and that they don't just say it, they don't just show up and do the workshops. They really work for that change. And I think Nikki is someone who has worked for change, as you'll hear in this interview. Let's get into it. Yes, roll it. Out. Nicky, thank you so much for joining us.

23:42

Thank you for inviting me to be here. It's an absolute pleasure,

Kate Bailey 23:45

can you start by telling us a little about yourself and your work and how you came into it, how it's evolved and what you're focusing on as we move forward.

Nicki Eyre 23:54

So the reason I came into this work is the same as for so many people in that I experienced workplace bullying myself. And one of the things that was really odd for me was how long it took me to recover from that experience. But one of the things that was really important was learning about workplace bullying. And what it was that had happened to me on a health level and a performance level, but also understanding the complexity of the subject. And so from there, I started with some coaching and some short talks and developed into training, and now have a full consultancy and training business, which helps organizations prevent workplace bullying, but I also have a social purpose attached to that business, which is around advocacy and campaigning. And so we really helped people in terms of the recovery stage we helped raise awareness through podcasts and an annual conference. And we're also looking at trying to get the law changed as well, so many, many different aspects. But really all about awareness raising and prevention of workplace bullying,

Kate Bailey 25:09

I guess that is a little different from a lot of practitioners in the space because a lot of practitioners tend to focus on coming in after there's been a problem. Is this something that you feel that you had to take a different approach when you were thinking about the kind of organization that you wanted to start? Or was it something that you felt was very an organic need?