Workplace Weekly E3: Workplace Weekly E3: Attorney and Workplace Investigator Christina Ro-Connelly of Oppenheimer Investigations Group LLP

We’re very thrilled to present Episode Three of Workplace Weekly, entirely dedicated to Part One of our interview with attorney and workplace investigator, Christina Ro-Connelly. Christina (Tina) Ro-Connelly is a Partner with Oppenheimer Investigations Group LLP (follow OIG on Instagram!). She has over a decade of labor and employment law experience and has conducted numerous investigations with Oppenheimer Investigations Group, many of which included allegations against elected officials and high-level executives. Tina leads AB1825 trainings, workplace investigator trainings, and bias trainings and also conducts audits of internal workplace investigations. Tina is a graduate of the Association of Workplace Investigators’s Training Institute for Workplace Investigators and has received the certificate to conduct Title IX investigations. Tina is a member of the Executive Committee of the Labor and Employment Section of the California Lawyers Association and a frequent trainer and presenter on employment law matters. She is also a sustaining member of AWI and a member of the AWI Institute Committee.

We talk about the flourishing vocation of workplace investigations, Tina’s role and approach, media and social media, the impact and ramifications of cases like Harvey Weinstein and the #MeToo reaction, and news items such as #Deflategate and the investigation into U.S. National Women’s Soccer and the report produced by Sally Q. Yates.
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Transcript: Workplace Weekly E3: Attorney and Workplace Investigator Christina Ro-Connelly of Oppenheimer Investigations Group LLP

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

workplace, investigations, people, conduct, employer, investigators, media, harassment, complaints, california, bullying, claim, tina, harvey weinstein, employment, social media, retaliation, investigatory, absolutely, niche

SPEAKERS

Tina Ro-Connelly, Fanny Wandel, Kate Bailey, Google Lady

Google Lady  00:00

You're listening to workplace weekly covering workplaces and labor activism and trying to have a remotely decent time doing it. Call us, Craig. David, cause we are born to do it. Let's do this thing

Kate Bailey  00:25

Hey, all right. Welcome to another episode of your favorite podcast about workplaces workplace weekly finding one girl Hello, hello. Another episode where we're not giving any extra segments because the interview is just that good. It was so good. In fact, it's going to be a two parter.

Fanny Wandel  00:45

I was speechless. I don't know if we're going to edit my shock in there, maybe?

Kate Bailey  00:50

I don't know. It was a you are gonna want to hear this interview. It's absolutely fascinating. We're talking media, workplaces and workplace investigations. But first, I think that's what we need to check in on workplace investigations. I feel like a lot of people is like consultant, no one really knows. And I'm a fucking consultant, fucking workplace investigator. No one gets it. I want to know, did you know about workplace investigations as a thing or as a career path?

Fanny Wandel  01:23

No, not at all. I mean, I haven't even worked in a workplace big enough to have HR. So no, I did not know as a career until you and I met.

Kate Bailey  01:32

Okay. Yeah. And I think it's important to define the profession. So a workplace investigation is an objective, independent systemic process of uncovering facts about a particular incident that occurred at work, we'll be talking with Christina roe Connelly, who's based in California and practicing and probably some of the most progressive workplace law landscapes that I've personally encountered totally, especially when you think about our previous episode with Nicaea, where, you know, a lot of the conduct that can be taken forward and California just isn't in the EU and the UK. All of that said, I think it is something that will be an inevitable part of the workplace ecosystem in the future. I encourage HR professionals to consider what training and options they can undertake in order to have the skill set but also to bring it to a place of high priority for workplaces. It can be invaluable as you're going to hear in today's interview. So funny what's going on? Yeah, well, we've

Fanny Wandel  02:44

now made it to the interview portion of the episode. And in this episode, as you said, we're gonna be talking to Christina row Connolly. So Christina, we're gonna call her Tina is a partner with the Oppenheimer and Investigations Group LLP. She has over a decade of Labor and Employment Law experience and has conducted numerous investigations with Oppenheimer Investigations Group, many of which included allegations against elected officials and high level executives. Tina leads a b one eight to five that I say okay, well done. Okay. Well, doncha trainings, workplace investigator trainings and bias trainings, and also conducts audits of internal workplace investigations. Tina is a graduate of the AWS Training Institute of workplace investigators and has received the certificate to conduct Title Nine investigations. Tina is a member of the executive committee of the labor and employment section of the California Lawyers Association, and a frequent trainer and presenter on employment law matters. She's also a sustaining member of Awai, and a member of the Awai Institute Committee. Really impressive resume, she's bustles so intimidated, man.

Kate Bailey  03:56

I read I think we were both a little on the backfoot in the interview, because Tina really is just an articulate person who I think can take such complex workplace scenarios and break it down for people in a really interesting way.

Fanny Wandel  04:10

Yeah. And I would even say, you know, I think some of what I really appreciate with that interview was how articulate she was how well spoken she was. I think that's something that's really missing with dealing with these issues is having the proper vocabulary, yes. And minimizing the sort of trauma that you might be inflicting on these people bringing these cases forward.

Kate Bailey  04:32

Yes, yes. I couldn't agree more. And with all this gushing, I think there's only one thing left to do.

Fanny Wandel  04:40

Let's go.

Kate Bailey  04:43

Tina, thank you so much for joining us. Can you start off by telling us about your passion for investigation and workplaces?

Tina Ro-Connelly  04:51

Thank you, Kate. It's such a pleasure to be here and I'm thrilled to be speaking with you today. So my passion for workplaces and investigations well to just Give a little bit of background as probably mentioned in the in my introduction, you know, I worked as a defense attorney for most of my career prior to what I'm doing now. So I worked as a defense attorney, and so I had to in labor and employment, so I used to have to defend against these claims, you know, defend the employer against claims brought by employees. And to be very candid with you, I just got tired of that, I got tired of that grind. And it seemed to me like, so many of these issues that I was trying to defend could be resolved could have been resolved prior to filing these claims or filing these lawsuits, you know, California where I practice employees, particularly government employees, those who are in the public sector, they can file claims with the Department of Fair Employment and Housing or DFE H, or the federal agency, the equal equal employment opportunity commission or the EEOC, so I'd have to review these claims filed by these entities and try to figure out how to turn an omelet back into eggs. And I as part of that process, I used to have to hire workplace investigators in my in my previous life, and I enjoy collaborating with them, I enjoy the work that they did overseeing these investigations, helping them navigate the logistics, reviewing their reports, and seeing if we as the employer could resolve issues and suss out bad actors to prevent the matter from escalating. And I found a lot of reward and a lot of passion in that sort of niche of my labor and employment practice. So initially, I thought, Okay, I'll be able to pursue this type of work in the twilight of my career, maybe I can hang up my own shingle as a solo practitioner doing workplace investigations in my retirement. But, and you know, on top of that inertia is a very powerful thing, right? I was very swayed by the stability and the security of my career in the government, it was a very comfortable place to be. But I had this wonderful opportunity to work with Amy Oppenheimer, who was truly a the founder and the pioneer of this area of work. I was coming out of maternity leave with my third son, and she was looking for someone at my level. And it just so happened, the timing worked out perfectly. And the rest is history. So I never went back to my I never returned to my government job for maternity leave, I went straight to working with Amy Oppenheimer, and I've never looked back. I love I love this field of air of law. And I love this practice. That's fantastic.

Kate Bailey  07:37

And I imagine as well, the trajectory of your life, you're talking about inertia. Does that feel a little different for you now that you're on the other side? And you took that plunge? Yeah, absolutely. It's,

Tina Ro-Connelly  07:51

you know, it was it was scary. I'm not gonna lie. I was I worked in that in that cocoon, and that in the safety and security of that, of that government cocoon for 11 years. And let me tell you, my husband was very nervous about me, taking the leap and back into the private sector doing sort of specializing in this niche field within my general practice area, and labor and employment. And it was nerve racking, you know, I just had my third kid, we had a family to support I had no idea what the trajectory was going to be. But I think I just sort of, I felt so compelled to make that leap. Because, again, this was a practice of law that I did find so interesting, and so fascinating. And also because, you know, it just the thought of, of continuing in that same line of work, you know, defending against these claims for the next 20 years of my career wasn't something that I was excited about at all. But the thought of pursuing this, this area of workplace investigations was something that I was excited about and motivated about, enough to take the leap of faith and again, haven't looked back, I have no regrets.

Kate Bailey  09:02

We love to hear that. And you touch on as well, that workplace investigations is a relatively new vocation or a relatively new specialization, its niche. And you've also mentioned that you work alongside the literal founder of the profession, Amy Oppenheimer. Could you describe how you saw the need, and uptake of the profession and how you've seen it evolve since you did take this leap?

Tina Ro-Connelly  09:32

Well, it's a much bigger profession Now, despite sort of the niche area that it started off in. It's really burgeoned and exploded and grown into a very large profession. When Amy Oppenheimer began pioneering this field and she founded the association of workplace investigators, the professional association, it was a small group of colleagues that met in people's homes and now it's grown own into 1000s of members across the world, including yourself. Okay, so you know, it's reaches now far and wide, which is incredible. Yeah, incredible in such a short, relatively short period of time. And I think many employers are realizing we can't wait until employers can't wait until workplace conflict rises to the level of a claim or litigation to address it. At that point, it's too late, right? People have dug in their heels, and they are committed to their story. They're committed to their position. And there's real business consequences to that right turnover, lack of productivity, people calling in sick leaving, which as we all know, that's expensive, that's expensive for for an employer. So there are real business consequences to that. And in addition to that, laws have strengthened across various jurisdictions, you know, California where I practice, we have a mandatory harassment prevention training that continues to this day to get more and more robust, you know, continuously adding requirements to what this prevention, trade harassment prevention training is supposed to include. Many other states within the United States have followed suit, case law has developed and that puts a legal obligation on employers to prevent and address harassment in the workplace. And part of that prevention includes investigating the conflict. So with these business consequences, as well as legal obligations, I think that's really exploded this niche practice this once niche practice. And on top of that, social movements, education and awareness, black lives matter here in the in the States, the me to movement, which happened internationally, stop Asian, hey, all of this has fueled a huge swell in people of color and marginalized communities to say, we're not going to be marginalized anymore, including in our workplaces.

Kate Bailey  11:57

Absolutely. And I think with the social changes, obviously, comes the legislative changes. California, I think is a leader not only in the United States, but globally when it comes to employment law and workplace management, I guess. So my question would be when we get social movements, driving legislative requirements, different types of mandates, that obviously broadens the type of investigations that would come to our desks, essentially, because the types of things that people are reporting now have a little bit more legitimacy because of social movements. So be it racism, be it gender discrimination, various things like that, in line with that, when I first met you at the International Association of workplace bullying and harassment conference in San Diego in 2022, you presented on trends in workplace investigations. In light of your previous answer, could you share with us some of your observations about how things are trending with workplace investigations?

Tina Ro-Connelly  12:55

Yes, yes. What's what's trending? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on this as well, Kate, so I'd be curious to hear your input. What our firm has absolutely seen is and what why this particular conference that I aw BH conference was so appropriate for this topic, is bullying complaints that harassment and hostile work environment typically have to be based on a protected category, right? That that someone is being treated differently, or poorly or being abused because of their fill in the blank protected category, race, gender, religion, et cetera, et cetera. And as you pointed out, Kate in California, in particular, those protected categories are far and wide. You know, most recently, we've passed the crown Act, which also protects hair natural hairstyles. But I think what's what's sort of evolved out of harassment and hostile work environment complaints, and the prevention training and the education and awareness around that is, I think employees are getting more and more savvy about any type of poor behavior in the workplace, not just hey, you can't treat me like this because I'm a woman. But you can't treat anybody like this. This is completely inappropriate behavior. You're not allowed to yell at people, you're not allowed to put down people's work and have in a meeting in front of others. You're not allowed to be dismissive or just ignore me in the hallway when I'm trying to say hello to you. I think employees are getting more savvy, they're getting more savvy, they're understanding what their workplace rights are, and they're realizing, okay, you know what bullying and abusive conduct may not be illegal conduct, you know, I may not be able to sue you for this, but this is still not okay. So we've actually seen a huge influx of abusive conduct and bullying complaints that we've been asked to investigate. And those are particularly challenging because it's typically not one event or a small cluster of events that led that person to believe, okay, I'm being treated differently because of my gender or because Supply religion, it's usually you know, pervasive behavior that's happened over sometimes years. And finally when they reach the their proverbial straw, and they've been empowered by these movements, and they want to make their workplaces better for everyone, and they come to us during these interviews, and they tell us about this history of this person treating people poorly over the course of the past 10 years, how do you right size those investigations? And how do you make sure you're gathering relevant information, important information that's digestible for the employer so that the employer can do something about it? You know, if you're submitting these massive reports of conduct over the past 10 years, in such a way that it's really hard for an employer to wrap their heads around. Okay, so what am I supposed to do with it? Does that really benefit the workplace? So that's the challenge with these bullying complaints? Can I gather information about this, that's important that's relevant and digestible. So that gives the employer a roadmap of what to do to address these types of complaints. So now that I've shared, you know, recent trends that I've seen, I'm curious to hear about UK, what have you observed?

Kate Bailey  16:14

Well, quite the same. And we recently were discussing with a professional in the United Kingdom, because they're advocating through consultancy, to have bullying recognized in the law in the UK. So they're seeking a private member's bill through the parliament there. Wow, wow. And once again, to echo what's happening in California, in the UK, that's exactly what they're seeing the protected classes are not necessarily extending protections to people who need it sometimes the most, because, like you say, these situations that can happen over a very long period of time, because they are subtle. Yes. And that is something where we also see retaliation. Yeah, a lot of the laws. I don't understand California and law like you do, but I do have some sense that retaliation, unless it's a protected class or unless as a specific reason can be very difficult to take any kind of recourse with. That's my next big trend retaliation. I don't know if it's a reaction to the social movement. What do you think, Tina? Is that? Have you seen more retaliation?

Tina Ro-Connelly  17:19

Oh, absolutely. I think retaliation has been, you know, a companion cause of action to any sort of harassment claim or lawsuit for years in California. And the law defines what we call a protected activity, one of which is making a complaint, one of which is participating in an investigatory process, any of those can constitute a protected activity. And if if an employee is treated differently, you know, and that that can be tangible employment actions, or even in tangible employment actions, like suddenly nobody's talking to them anymore. Suddenly, they're not included in important meetings, suddenly, they're not privy to desirable assignments. All of those can constitute a negative employment action. And so for years, we've been seeing, particularly in California, that retaliation goes hand in hand with any lawsuit that's based on harassment, because even if the underlying claim of harassment is unfounded, no basis, no merit to it, there can still be a claim of retaliation for making that complaint. So we've absolutely been seeing a lot of complaints of retaliation. That yeah, that goes hand in hand with harassment complaints. And something else that you mentioned that I totally agree with is sort of the the subtle conduct, right, the subtle acts of bullying that aren't over in in your face. And that's what California law, it's not against the law. But California provides a definition of abusive conduct. And it says that, you know, the conduct can't just be severe, it also has to be pervasive. And that's often what happens in these cases is, the conduct is subtle, it's not severe conduct, it's little slights here and there that add up over the course of a week over the course of a career of you know, and all of that is significant, like it really at the cumulative effect really adds up. And on top of that, another common trend that we've been seeing is microaggressions. Right? Same thing, subtle conduct on it's oftentimes unintentional conduct that sort of generates from within our own implicit biases, right, implicit biases that we may not even be, we may not even be consciously aware that we have been on the receiving end, you know, the targets of the microaggressions they feel it, and they see it and they know it's inappropriate, but because it's micro, they sort of feel like they're in a position where they have to ignore it right or risk being labeled, overly sensitive, or risk being labeled as overreacting. Totally on the same page as UK sort of seeing this movement of subtle conduct. subtle acts of bullying or, or micro aggressions by their very definition being micro.

Kate Bailey  20:05

Yes. And I can definitely see the trajectory that places like the United Kingdom or the European Union, European Union, where there needs to be, I guess more uptake of the kind of language that you're describing is in California law, not to say that it's perfect. And not to say that it's able to capture everything. But I think clarity of language is something that's really just starting to develop around workplaces in a lot of the world. And we can appreciate California is a little bit ahead. It also brings me to the social media realm, right. So when we're talking about the way people describe things, what happens to them, so if they don't have the right language, and they're going out into social media, were seeing this sort of like, cacophony and accusations and lore, and this and that, and it all just gets a little bit messy. So I would say that's kind of the other trend I'm seeing is that the culture is adapting slowly. But then we've also got these very powerful communicative tools. So it's adapting in front of everyone. In line with that, could you share some of your perspectives and observations, not only on the language that people are using around workplaces, but how that's also coming into the social media realm and how that impacts investigations? Questions, and one you got it.

Tina Ro-Connelly  21:25

I, social media man is it's such a bastion of negativity, and yet such a critical tool of spreading education and awareness. And I often say this, I often bring up this talk when I this point, when I'm giving talks and conferences, and when I was speaking on panels of how social media can be such a useful tool for education and awareness, you know, I really make a conscious effort to to fill my algorithm with black influencers, native influencers, LGBTQ influencers, so that I am gaining knowledge and and vernacular that I wouldn't ordinarily be able to learn in my day to day life. You know, in fact, a friend of mine specifically asked me, he said, Look, I didn't intend to be candid with you, I didn't grow up in a community with a lot of African American people. How am I supposed to know these nuances? How am I supposed to learn about these subtleties, and my response to him was, look, as much as you might hate social media, social media can be a very powerful tool for that, to learn about cultures and differences in people that you or that you're not typically exposed to in your day to day. Now, of course, the counter to that is just the negativity and just the evilness the bastion of just all toxic behavior that is social media. And, yes, I think it's sort of pushed and just how politicized social media has become, and of course, the how algorithms can work against us that echo chamber of just filling our brains with the same knowledge over and over and over again. So I mean, do I, I don't know that I really have an answer to that yet. Yes, it absolutely impacts investigations and workplaces, because people take what they're learning for better and for worse on social media and bringing that into their interactions in the workplace. People are posting things on social media, that potentially has implications in the workplace, if people are posting, you know, trans folk, transphobic materials. And they're friends with their colleagues in their workplaces and their colleagues see the type of material that they're posting, can that potentially be a claim of harassment? Yes, absolutely. And just because it's your private account, taking place during your personal time, if it has, if it has an impact in the workplace that could potentially give rise to a claim. So it is hard to and in this day and age where so many of us are working virtually, where the line between work, and home is so blurred. Yeah, that's, that's gonna continue to bleed into workplace complaints and investigations.

Kate Bailey  24:22

Yeah. And I've also noticed as well, as you sort of described, it goes from being something that initially someone's interacting with their own accounts and things like that. But then it can also bleed out into the broader public arena, where the types of conduct that you just described get amplified quite rapidly. And then what we also tend to see is that the media will pick that up as well. So it's kind of creating social media is playing an interesting role in the ecosystem of complaints how they come to light and other means, because for some people, it's a lot easier to anonymously post terrible things about their workplace. Truth as they may be, but then that can create a problem for the person who's actually posting those allegations. But if those allegations aren't posted, then the media wouldn't be interested. And if the media is not interested, then it's never gonna get out of I summed up the shitshow pretty well. Yeah. Okay.

Tina Ro-Connelly  25:19

Clickbait clickbait 100%. Yeah,

Kate Bailey  25:21

yeah. And the media is really playing into it. So, there are a lot of pros and cons to this. In 2021, you co authored a publication for the National Law Journal titled the pros and cons of handling harassment accusations in the media. May I ask, what was the catalyst for this? And could you describe a little further the points you wanted to make in your article?

Tina Ro-Connelly  25:45

The catalyst for this was that harassment investigations are becoming increasingly public. Harvey Weinstein, Matt Lauer, and workplace investigations generally are becoming more public and investigation reports are becoming more public. And we mentioned this in the article, the NFL, the National Football League, one of the most prominent quarterbacks and one of the biggest public figures within that league Tom Brady and the whole deflate gate scandal with the footballs that investigatory report that the and that is a workplace report that investigatory workplace report was made public, and read even more recent than Deflate Gate, the US National Women's Soccer League. They had a there was a complaint that was made that a prominent US attorney named Sally Yates, she was hired to conduct an independent investigation into abusive behavior. There's that and there's that there's that term, again, abuse of bullying behavior, and sexual misconduct within the National Women's Soccer League. So all of this increasingly public, and all of this information is now being shared and being and being publicized in the media, social media print media. However, even lawyers, even lawyers, are not fully informed or understand the work that investigators do, like even lawyers. And so how much does the layperson not understand the process and the work that workplace investigators do? And so we realized, okay, parts of the catalyst was there needs to be more education and awareness of more nuanced topics, like the burden of proof and workplace investigations, or why attorney investigators specifically why were neutral and independent despite being retained and paid for by an employer, why there needs to be a balance of transparency, in order for there to be accountability, versus the chilling effect, if everybody knows that everything they're going to share is going to be shared with the public. I mean, would you be willing to participate in an investigation if you knew that everything you said was going to be publicized in the media? I mean, talk about the chilling effect of that the lack of cooperation and the inability to conduct a full fair and thorough investigation. So in the midst of all this publicity, in the midst of wanting to generate clickbait we wanted to draw attention to there are advantages and there are disadvantages to doing this.

Kate Bailey  28:22

Yeah. And could you talk a little bit about some of those advantages and disadvantages, because I think that for a lot of people listening to this, a lot of them know us because we produced media, about workplace incidences. But we're also, you know, in that other field where actual investigators, so can you please describe the pros and cons of media?

Tina Ro-Connelly  28:44

I'll start with the benefits. And, Kate, I do want to hear your perspective on this. Because especially because the work you do is so highly publicized and is so prominent in the media. So I'd love to hear your feedback as well. I think the biggest benefit is transparency and accountability. I think it is fair to say that workplace investigations and the outcome of those investigations and the process is often shrouded in secrecy. And I think that can be counterproductive to what we're trying to accomplish. So I think transparency and accountability, especially for the wrongdoers is critical and is a huge benefit. When allegations are made public in the media. I mean, look at the swift response to Harvey Weinstein and to Matt Lauer once all of that information became public. I mean, I don't know if you watched Apple TVs the morning show. Oh, yeah, that whole first season was centered or was centered around. Yeah. The media blowback of someone who's such a public figure having all of their transgressions made public. And no doubt that is important. That's important for survivors for marginalized communities who've been taken advantage of in by employers for a long time, and there is a feeling of justice and accomplishment when you know what goes around comes around. Right. So So in that sense, I do think that there is a lot of benefit to that. So yeah, curious to hear your thoughts. Okay.

Kate Bailey  30:10

Well, yeah, I agree with you that that pace of justice is something that you would never get through and investigatory process. But I also find it conflicting because I believe in the investigatory process. So I think it was incredible and necessary that the Harvey Weinstein allegations happen the way that they did and the various other examples. At the same time, I'm acutely aware that there hadn't been any investigations done at the time, that was all happening. Why am I aware of that? Because I know from having made podcasts with people who have been through these experiences, who really don't feel that there is any legitimate pause for them, I know for them that this is something they absolutely need one require some way somehow. And I also know that they're telling the truth, and they know they can tell the truth. So that brings me to the ultimate dream utopia that we'd be talking about here is that workplace investigations would, would rise to a degree of prominence and respect, wherein there is a process and our job actually isn't to find the truth, which is what you do when you're making media, that's been my position, we find the truth and presented with facts as investigators, we are there to substantiate facts. For the most part, like we are there to verify, document and understand every element of every claim to the best of our ability and present those findings, ultimately, that's very different from the truth. Which, sorry, I agree. Yeah, yeah, but please continue.

Tina Ro-Connelly  31:48

I was gonna say Put, put differently, we're here to assess, you know, what the evidence supports. And that's how we try to frame our findings, especially when we're not necessarily able to sustain or substantiate an allegation of harassment or bullying or fill in the blank. I had one of the complainants in one of my investigations, accused me of calling her a liar, because I couldn't substantiate or sustain what she was alleging. She said, Well, and she was very angry with me and accused me of calling her a liar. And what I tried to communicate in my report, and in my findings is, it's not that I think any of these people are lying to me. In fact, I think you're two diametrically opposed perspectives. And there can be two diametrically opposed perspectives. And I can sit and I can believe that neither of them are lying to me. You know, everybody sort of brings their brings their life experiences into an interaction, and that's how they can walk away experiencing it so differently. But really, what I'm trying to conclude is, what does the evidence support? It's not that you're lying, but I don't have enough evidence to support what you're saying. I don't think that a preponderance of the evidence supports the what your supports what you're saying, which is much different than I think you're a liar for I think you're not telling the truth.

Kate Bailey  33:21

That illustrates the point beautifully, yeah. We will be leaving episode three here. Make sure that you are subscribed wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast because part two of this interview episode Bob will be available for you next week. Hey, you, yeah, you. Listen up. Workplace weekly is an entirely independent production funded by the commercial activities of hand and ha we do not run any membership or subscriber options, but we asked you that if you'd like to support our work, please share our work on socials. Tell your friends to listen to an episode and send them a link and rate review and subscribe to us on Spotify or Apple maybe both one post or one share or one review makes a huge difference. And if you would like to support us and appreciate the work we do, this is what we recommend you do to support us thank you so much for listening workplace weekly was produced by Kate Bailey and funny one doll for hand and hot media the publishing arm of hand and hawk and Bihar you can follow hand and hop on Instagram via at hand and heart to EU via at h underscore and underscore page media. Any inquiries related to this broadcast please email admin at hand and hop.eu our music was composed and performed by Amanda and produced by Amanda with Kyle startup. You can follow Amanda on Instagram or listen to their music on Spotify, Apple or SoundCloud. If you love Amanda's music, please consider buying it from back and can't support indie always our artwork was created by Nick's Renton, a fantastic photographer and graphic designer and you can find them in the links in the episode description. You can always find workplace weekly on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud, and Vimeo and basically wherever you get your podcasts for those wanting an RSS feed, the link is in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening